Need suggestions on a flathead engine to use

[jbwelda]

I am in need of suggestions for a flathead V8 ford engine to use in an upcoming project. I would like it to be as detailed as possible, and as accurate as possible, at least as far as the engine block and maybe transmission go. Sourced from a current kit would be nice, or aftermarket, resin, etc ok too. Also, a Hilborn style injector setup, especially the manifold as I can get stacks elsewhere, and some reasonably accurate straight exhaust pipes (by "straight" I mean no mufflers, they can be bent and in fact its for a drag car with an open engine so even zoomies would be good).


Any suggestions or common wisdom would be appreciated


jb

[fordrodnkustom]

The AMT '34 Ford and the Revell '50 Pick up have nice ones and are what firt come to mind. I know there's more out there.

[Bernard Kron]

This is really nerdy stuff if you let it get to you. Here's a link to an excellent breakdown of FoMoCo flathead V8s from their inception to their demise (in two parts: www.45cui.com/45cui/tech/ford-flathead-engine-identification-part , www.45cui.com/45cui/tech/ford-flathead-engine-identification-part-1 ). As far as eyeball appearance their are three basic types.

Initially the original 221 cu. in. version was made from 1932 to 1938 with 21 stud heads and from 1938 to 1942 with 24 stud heads. From '32 to '36 the 21 stud heads had the water pump in the heads. A great 1/25th scale version of this can be found in the AMT 1934 Ford 5-window kit. It's even got excellent early style hop-up heads and twin-carb intake manifold. Starting in 1937 Ford switched to in-block water pumps, and the water inlets moved to the center of the heads. For excellent basic versions in 1/24th scale of this one look to the Monogram/Revell '37 Ford trucks. The 1/24th vs. 1/25th issue matters with respect to aftermarket heads, which I'll explain a little further on. In '38 they increased the number of studs to 24. For really nicely detailed versions in 1/25th scale of the 34-stud variation the various Revell '40 and '48 Fords can't be beat.

The second version was the 239 cu. in. starting with the stillborn 1941 model year. Visually the only change was the introduction of the crab-style distributor. It wasn't around long, only through 1946. But the high-output hop-up magneto rigs of the immediate postwar period, like the iconic Harmon Collins and the first red-cap Mallory setups were crab style. So if you want to represent an early postwar hopped-up flathead you'll want to go with a crab-style distributor, 24 stud heads, in-block water pumps and center water outlets. All kit crab-style distributor are weenie and unconvincing IMHO. Fortunately they tend to be hidden behind the radiator so you can just stuff the spark plug wires down in the general region and call it done. For the high-detail version, like in a competition application where the front of the motor shows, you'll need to get the beautifully turned out resin Harmon Collins from Replicas & Miniatures. Starting in '47 the factory distributor was the contemporary-style cylindrical type except facing forward. The hop-up equivalent was offered by Kong but is visually similar to the factory rig. From a modeling point of view I consider this style a "why bother" unless your a total vintage parts nerd.

The third version flathead V8, visually, was introduced in 1949 with the 98BA/8BA series. The displacement stayed the same but the water ports returned to the front of the heads, and most importantly, the distributor drive moved up to the top left of the accessory drive and was of the conventional shaft drive used by most manufacturers by then. There were many important metallurgical and internal design changes made with this series and these late period (through '53) motors are ,considered the weapon of choice for serious competition Flathead afficionados. I would think that if you're modeling a late 50's or later drag car you would want to run an 8BA block and use a modern style disributor or magneto and make sure you had front outlet heads. When I've done 8BA's I usually worked with a Revell '40 Ford block and had to mock up a modern style distributor drive. Replicas & Miniatures offers a 98A style accessory drive and distributor IRRC. I suspect that a pretty darn nice 8BA could be made from the Revell '53 Ford Truck Ardun motor by reverting to hop-up flatheads.

Which brings me to aftermarket aluminum finned heads. IMHO the nicest ones out there are offered by Model Car Garage. Their beautifully crisp and they offer all the coolest vintage brands (Offenhauser, Edelbrock, and even Evans and Sharp). The Offy and Evans heads are offered in center port as well as front port. I highly recommend them. But they are slightly oversized. I'm guessing they're 1/24th scale. Lengthwise they fit 1/25th scale motors fine, but the width is slightly large which means they hang over the cylinder deck. But it's a relatively easy fix to slip a strip of .030 styrene in the valley area to raise the intake manifold flush with the heads which I have done several times.

Regarding individual exhaust pipes for a competition applpication I suggest you bend your own front aluminum tubing. I don't know of any aftermarket ones.

Early style 221 V8 with front water pumps and "helmet style" ignition:

Center port vs. front port:

Full house Flathead flathead v8 with vintage Harmon Collins crab-style ignition and S.Co.T. blower (note block mounted water pumps):

Perhaps what you have in mind (injected 8BA block with zoomies and front water outlets plugged)):

[jbwelda]

thank you both for replying, especially your thorough go at it Bernard. What I am thinking of would be exactly that last photo you posted, Bernard. I have some RMM accessories already including the crab distributor but I like the front mount conventional dist better for these purposes. That full house flattie you picture is tempting too but for this one I don't want anything that grand, more like a backyard injected engine.

Right now I am going to re-read and digest some of that info. Looks like I will need to go shopping though I am hopeful I can find that Revell 53 ford truck in my closet. At the least it looks like I got a couple hours of kit digging to go.

Thanks again and look for some kind of thread on this coming soon. I am basing it on the AMT double dragster Fiat frame with the AMT T bucket from the parts pack kit. Contrary to rumour, there is quite a bit of doing to get the body to fit the frame properly, it does fit on it ok but then the roll bar, steering boxes etc are not in proper places. If you haven't tried it, keep a look out for the thread

jb

[jbwelda]

Did a bit of crate digging and came up with some options. Bernard, would like your feedback on these.

First I did not find the Revell 53 Ford truck with the Ardun heads...but I did find a Revell 50 Ford F1 pickup, and it does have a flattie with Ardun heads. is this the same engine you mentioned? I take it that it is the one Ron mentions. Would require a head transplant but that's ok, if they fit or close to fit. As you mention, this one has front distributor drive (not "crab style") and front water outlets

I also found an AMT 53 Ford truck with a flathead with front drive distributor and engine front water outlets. Any opinion on this one, or was this by chance the one you meant but instead wrote "Revell"?

I looked in the AMT 49 Ford Coupe, the "Gas Man" issue and I see a flathead in there as well. Any comments on this engine? again it does have front dist drive and front water outlets.

I haven't made an indepth comparison of these yet to see which ones have separate starters etc vs molded in, which may make a difference when it comes to choosing one

I did look at the AMT/Lindberg 34 Ford truck but its engine seems pretty compromised, seeing as how the block is used both for the flathead and for the overhead engine. Ron did you mean the 34 truck or did you mean the 34 coupe or sedan or whatever it is? I think I have that one as well but its buried deeper than I have dug yet.

I also looked through a couple of Revell kits, the 40 ford convertible (has crab style dist and head center water outlets) and also a 37(?) Woodie with what appears to be the same engine, maybe not exact but drawings looked close. As I want the later block these aren't usable for this project.

I appreciate the help, I need to choose something to use as a dummy to plan the layout so its a stumbling block to progress right now. I am going to try to avoid ordering just heads for this if I can come up with some suitable ones from a kit. I did notice a few possibilities while digging through kits. But if those heads from MCG are really a must, then perhaps I must! Bernard?


jb

[Bernard Kron]

I meant Revell '50 Ford. I was thinking about the AMT '53 Ford when I made that mistake. Sorry. AMT motors tend to be more blobilicious than Revell ones so I tend to opt for the Revell ones. The AMT '34 Ford 5-window motor is the exception that proves the rule. It's exceptionally well detailed, but not relevant to what your doing. The Revell '50 Ford has a separate accesory drive while the AMT '53 Ford has the accessory drive molded into the same piece as the fan belt/pulleys assembly, so I think for your purposes you'll have to go with the Revell '50 Ford pickup.

Regarding the heads, there are very nice Edelbrock finned 24 stud finned heads in the Revell '32 Ford Sedan and '40 Ford Street Rod kits but, correct for their respective motors, they have center outlet heads, so the MCG heads may land up being your best option if you want to be technically correct. They're $6.50 plus shipping so you may want to think about it, especially if you include shipping and have no other MCG bits to get.

[jbwelda]

> especially if you include shipping and have no other MCG bits to get

that's the thing, I probably won't be ordering 6.50 worth of parts, if I am going to do an order I will have to buy some other stuff. So that's more like 30 smackers before postage. But it spreads out the postage better, or so I tell myself.

I dug into these kits to check the engines closer. First of all, totally agree on the blobilicious part. And what I have been looking at confirmed that. Except, as you note, that AMT 34 Ford, I haven't actually checked out the parts yet, but looking at the instrux, it looks very nice. Lots of nice looking (in the drawings, anyway) small bits, and I noticed it had separate water outlets. But you mention it is not a correct motor, is that because the water is coming out the block, and not out the top of the heads? Because before I read your response, I had half decided to use this 34 Ford engine (again, without examining the pieces, I was eating dinner and looking at the instruction sheet). I have to go back and go through your most appreciated summary again and refresh my memory on the changes.

So yeah will probably see what I can get from MCG and make up an order. Do they have a web store by chance? never mind, got it.

thanks again
jb

[Bernard Kron]

The AMT '34 Ford flathead is unique in that it's an accurate and detailed rendition of the earliest version of the Ford V8. But if you're going with Hilborn injection that would be post-1948 (nice Hilborn history here hilborninjection.com/hilborn-history/ )so you're right up against the 98BA (1949). It depends on how late 50's/early 60's your car is. Through the mid-50's lots of 24 stud pre-98BA blocks were being used, especially on street machines. But the 98BA/8BA was definitely the serious setup, and by the early 60's that's mainly what you saw on drag cars from the Flathead die-hards.

I haven't been able to locate any flathead injectors. The late Ron Royston at Early Years Resin made one... but no longer. It's a pretty simple piece, just a flat plate and the standard Hilborn bits. Cutting up a kit Chevy small block unit to favricate your own would definitely no be beyond your considerable skills. Here's a link to the Hilborn page on their mechanical injectors, which haven't changed significantly in appearance since the 1950's: hilborninjection.com/product/239-ford-flathead-fuel-injector/ .

The rather rudimentary (and inaccurate) Early Years resin piece:



The real deal:

[jbwelda]

thanks Bernard, I am going to take your (research and) suggestions and use the 50 truck engine and replace the Ardun heads with those from MCG. And while that AMT 34 Ford engine looked promising in the instructions, the small bits were so covered with flash that I decided to not even bother. The AMT double dragster is likewise a total joke (couldn't they find better places for the ejector pins than RIGHT ON THE SHOWING SURFACE???), but I expected that. For the injection I think I will see if the Revell 29 A roadster nailhead setup will work on the flattie, I have a bunch of those I have been hoarding so might as well make use of some of the parts elsewhere since even I have a limit to the number of injected nailheads I can imagine building.

By the way I did go back through your excellent writeup and determine the 34 Ford engine was of the earliest type: front water outlets from the block and lower front mounted distributor. If I have that correct, but its beside the point now because as you mention might as well use a more correct, later, higher output engine, although for the purposes of a shade-tree mechanic build even the earlier engines might suffice.

Mostly I want to use my scale "Flatheads Forever" bumper sticker somewhere.


jb

[Mr.409]

Some very good information on this thread. I can't add anything to what has been said already, but on a current project I'm building an Injected Flathead (for '41 Plymouth G/Gas). The engine was taken from Revell's '40 Ford Coupe but I scratchbuilt my own intake to accept the injector stacks. Maybe not the most accurate, but after all it's hidden under all of the extra details anyway...

[jbwelda]

Very nice Niko, where did you get the injector stacks? AMT parts pack cut down some?

I cut the tranny and bell housing off the engine I am using and am substituting the double dragster scatter shield and the little bitty in/out box. I figure if that box is good enuff for the Hemi in the DD, its good enuff for a flattie. Also, and kind of the primary reason for using it, it has a nice engine mount that fits the chassis well. Interestingly the flat head front cover also has mounts that fit the chassis perfectly.

jb

[Mr.409]

Thanks JB! The injector stacks are made out of some electric components called "Ferrules". They have a plastic insulating on the flared end. Just tap the plastic piece off and you'll find a nice flared end inside. Those ferrules come in different sizes and they're really cheap. I bought a selection of several hundred pieces for around $10 here in Finland.

[mrmetallic]

May 19, 2019 15:00:07 GMT -5 Mr.409 said:

Man Niko, that flattie is a little gem. Nice amount of detail, and clean execution

[jbwelda]

That's certainly something to set my sights on, I especially like the way the ignition wires are routed. On mine though it will be an upright magneto. And the linkage and injection fuel inputs are beautiful too.

jb

[plowboy]

You may want to check out the flathead in the AMT '41 Ford Woody. It has nice heads, front cover that mounts the distributor off to the side, chrome headers and separate starter. It has a modern type fuel injection setup that could probably be converted to the Holborn style pretty easily. Here's a couple of photos of it with a different intake and carburetors.